m2tm's talk :)

[m2tm]

Now, now. I have no problems with people learning from my map if they can! I hope people do. You are misunderstanding me.

I do my best to encourage people to learn from what I do and work on their own maps. I had a fellow ask me how I did the timed charm on my liches and I gave him the exact triggers from my map to help him on his way. If you had a specific question for me I would answer it honestly and provide examples if I had them.

I also released a public template version of an earlier version of my map so people can make their own.

And I say "my map" because I've put in over 300 hours of effort into it. You can say I ripped it off if you like. I would concede for earlier versions they are basically just rip offs... But we all have to start somewhere and this is my first map ever, I used ice as a basis and learned from it... For some of the latest versions of beast I'm pretty sure if you tried to make a case for it basically being an ice rip off you'd be making an uninformed statement because honestly there's very little of the original ice in beast. I re-wrote basically all the jass and the only thing left is the beginning units which I have left so that people don't have to wonder what each building does in the early tiers. It's so that it's easy to transition from ice to beast.

I never said I intended to sell it and I recognize that blizzard's map maker is the only reason I could make it... But by your logic you would take all credit from the original painter who used photoshop and claim that Adobe is the only reason they have a picture. Even if blizzard owns the rights to the map, I believe that you could at least acknowledge the hours of work that get put into the thing.

What I do not like is when people add cheats to the map. Basically it's the same set of steps for most maps in existence... You can't tell me you "learn" from doing the same 3 step process over and over. No, I don't don't click me that. It's just rigging and ruining the game for anyone who unwittingly joins. Then it also comes back to me because I get people bitching at me for adding cheats (which I have none... I have admin commands, but they are all fairly public knowledge and whenever an admin enters a command it broadcasts the message to everyone so it isn't secretive at all.)

Basically I just want to keep it fun and fair for everyone. That's all. And I am thankful because the latest two versions haven't had cheats injected into them (publicly on this site anyway). I'm sure someone could easily do so, I have no doubts to that at all. I'm sure I couldn't stop you if you wanted to do it yourself. But I'll consistently and politely ask that people not do that. You can take offense if you like, but I'm not trying to offend.

Anyway, I'm just trying to respond to your points, not trying to start a fight. I can't stop people from doing what they want, but at least I can give my opinion... That's all I was doing.

-Peace

M2tM

[Bartimaeus²]

Now, now. I have no problems with people learning from my map if they can! I hope people do. You are misunderstanding me.

I do my best to encourage people to learn from what I do and work on their own maps. I had a fellow ask me how I did the timed charm on my liches and I gave him the exact triggers from my map to help him on his way. If you had a specific question for me I would answer it honestly and provide examples if I had them.

I also released a public template version of an earlier version of my map so people can make their own.

And I say "my map" because I've put in over 300 hours of effort into it. You can say I ripped it off if you like. I would concede for earlier versions they are basically just rip offs... But we all have to start somewhere and this is my first map ever, I used ice as a basis and learned from it... For some of the latest versions of beast I'm pretty sure if you tried to make a case for it basically being an ice rip off you'd be making an uninformed statement because honestly there's very little of the original ice in beast. I re-wrote basically all the jass and the only thing left is the beginning units which I have left so that people don't have to wonder what each building does in the early tiers. It's so that it's easy to transition from ice to beast.

I never said I intended to sell it and I recognize that blizzard's map maker is the only reason I could make it... But by your logic you would take all credit from the original painter who used photoshop and claim that Adobe is the only reason they have a picture. Even if blizzard owns the rights to the map, I believe that you could at least acknowledge the hours of work that get put into the thing.

What I do not like is when people add cheats to the map. Basically it's the same set of steps for most maps in existence... You can't tell me you "learn" from doing the same 3 step process over and over. No, I don't don't click me that. It's just rigging and ruining the game for anyone who unwittingly joins. Then it also comes back to me because I get people bitching at me for adding cheats (which I have none... I have admin commands, but they are all fairly public knowledge and whenever an admin enters a command it broadcasts the message to everyone so it isn't secretive at all.)

Basically I just want to keep it fun and fair for everyone. That's all. And I am thankful because the latest two versions haven't had cheats injected into them (publicly on this site anyway). I'm sure someone could easily do so, I have no doubts to that at all. I'm sure I couldn't stop you if you wanted to do it yourself. But I'll consistently and politely ask that people not do that. You can take offense if you like, but I'm not trying to offend.

Anyway, I'm just trying to respond to your points, not trying to start a fight. I can't stop people from doing what they want, but at least I can give my opinion... That's all I was doing.

-Peace

M2tM

ZOMGZ ZOMGM ZOMG ZOMG, I CHEATZ YOUR MAP! I still agree with this guy :S, at least, kind of. Nevo is wrong, and he's also right. M2tm is right, almost in all ways.

"Learning" from three steps that you've done over and over and over, you won't make any progess, unless you actually look at the steps, how they work, and see the triggers and learn from them, which, I must say, nobody does. I don't don't click me that either. If someone actually learned from doing these steps, Nevo, I would agree with you...but...no one does because they can't have a bother to look at any of it and learn it. Now, I don't map make anymore, or even play Warcraft anymore, except at rare times with good friends, so you can't really say I do the same anymore because I don't use any of that. Also, m2tm is right where he uses the logic that you are using Nevo where he says adobe gets all the credit, not the painter who originally made the picture. Now, I'm not saying adobe doesn't deserve credit, it does, because without it, the picture would've been impossible or made with a different tool. But the maker must also get credit, because without the maker, it wouldn't be made. By what you're saying, Nevo, is that if a artist made pictures and made millions from them, why should he get it? I mean, the brushes made them, not him. That's basically what you're saying. While m2tm made this map, or edited, or whatever, he doesn't truly "own" it, but he still made it. If no one else in the world had it besides him, he would own it, but once he gives it out to the public, it's their's to edit however the wish.

[nevo]

M2tm, you are one hell of a dude, and i take back what i said, i do agree on what your saying so, just keep making newer versions!

[Bartimaeus²]

M2tm, you are one hell of a dude, and i take back what i said, i do agree on what your saying so, just keep making newer versions!

Oh yes, and I meant nevo when I was saying vegas, lol. Gee, I don't know how I mixed nevo with vegas, ROFL. I'll edit that =/

[nevo]

Maybe its the weed? O.o

[m2tm]

Haha, peace Nevo. Thanks man, I understand exactly how I can come off as just another bitchy mapmaker at a first glance so there is no offense taken honestly.

And for sure, I'm working on my map to keep it polished and new feeling without ruining the original vampirism feel people expect. Impossible to keep it completely balanced, but I am doing my best so I'm glad you like it

And as always, if there is anything I can contribute to the mapping community I'd love to. I'll privately share my anti maphack (which is fairly polished now) and anti minimap hack (which is also fairly polished now) with anyone interested (privately because I don't want it to be countered really quickly... I'm not sure how someone could, but just in case.) Or if people are interested in seeing how I implement specific things (such as Taskmaster which is a fairly useful upgrade compared to the standard lumber capacity upgrade I see in most maps.)

-Cheers

M2tM

[colmo]

Yea thats kinda what i thought u were at first... but now i have too say srry for thinking that, i was wrong. Although i might still hack your maps ^^

And BTW I think a lot of people do learn from looking at all the triggers and JASS while cheating, I for one couldn't have made a half assed map if it wasnt for this site.

[nevo]

lol, m2tm got so much attention once you think about it from the site,

We even have a topic detected to him! [m2tm's talk ]

But, seriously, this site is very good, easy access and great people, but the funny thing is, most people who play battlenet still cant understand where the hacked maps come from, lol. Its just to funny, ^^

[m2tm]

It's kind of ironic when you think about it considering my entire purpose of coming here was basically to have my map and myself ignored by this site

And yeah, I understand colmo. I'll still ask any time I see a request that it not be hacked, but it isn't and never was something I could enforce or control. I don't even mind if the map is hacked for learning purposes. The only thing I'm really not keen about it having cheats put in because they ruin games for new players and people bitch at me for putting hacks in when I didn't o.o

Things like removing the anti maphack and such are fine. I'll even fulfill those types of requests myself and just release it as the "anti-anti maphack version" because I understand that sometimes there is a legit reason to not want an anti maphack version (like if you were playing in-house clan games and want there to be such a small amount of chance of it crashing even though it's "pretty good" right now, it still isn't completely flawless. I'm doing something next version that might make it so, but the only way to tell is through stress testing the system with lots and lots of players.)

[nevo]

I have an idea, You see, you can do what skillet did. Here, im going to pm you about it.